Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2 hrs,
100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
imply that it should be dual in the statement:

"20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
this part that includes at least --

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "

I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?

-- Dane

Dane Spearing wrote:
> Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2 hrs,
> 100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
> imply that it should be dual in the statement:
>
> "20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
> this part that includes at least --
>
> (iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
>
> (iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?
>
> -- Dane

That's my understanding. I'm pursuing my commercial also and have been
told this by several CFIs.


Matt

On 6/29/2006 3:31 PM, Dane Spearing wrote the following:
> Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2 hrs,
> 100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
> imply that it should be dual in the statement:
>
> "20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
> this part that includes at least --
>
> (iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
>
> (iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?
>
> -- Dane

Yes. The examiner and I had to do some hunting in my logbook to find
a flight that qualified for (iii) as I had misunderstood and thought a
solo was o.k. Fortunately we found one.

"Dane Spearing" > wrote in message
...
> Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2
> hrs,
> 100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
> imply that it should be dual in the statement:
>
> "20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
> this part that includes at least --
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?

Yes. See 61.1b6 for the definition of "flight training". (The three main
sources of official aviation definitions are FAR 1.1, FAR 61.1, and the AIM
Pilot/Controller Glossary. Not all regulatory terms appear in any of those
places; but most do, so they're good places to look first.)

By the way, commercial privileges are granted by a new certificate, not a
rating. The DE might care about that distinction. :)

(I cross-posted this to rec.aviation.piloting, since it's not about IFR.)

--Gary

Dane Spearing wrote:
e of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?
>
>
Yep and solo MEANS solo. That's another one that trips up commercial
applicants.

"Dane Spearing" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2
> hrs,
> 100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
> imply that it should be dual in the statement:
>
> "20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
> this part that includes at least --
>
> (iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine
> airplane
> in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of
> more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
>
> (iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine
> airplane
> in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of
> more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?
>

Yes, an absolutely ridiculous requirement.

Dane Spearing wrote:
> Do the two VRF cross country trips required for the commercial rating (2 hrs,
> 100 nm min, one day, one night) have to be dual? FAR 61.129(a)(3) seems to
> imply that it should be dual in the statement:
>
> "20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in 61.127(b)(1) of
> this part that includes at least --
>
> (iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
>
> (iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine airplane
> in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more
> than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; ... "
>
> I assume that "training" implies dual. Is this a correct assumption?
>
> -- Dane


Your interpretation is correct. The same section also requires "solo"
xc flights. Technically this has to be without passengers. My feeling
is that this FAR was written for those who take commercial checkrides
directly from a student pilot certificate. In those cases the FAR start
to make sense. But for someone already with a PP and IR, it makes no
sense at all.

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My feeling is that this FAR was written for those who
> take commercial checkrides directly from a student pilot certificate.

I'm afraid such a checkride wouldn't get very far: 61.123h says a
commercial-pilot applicant must "hold at least a private pilot certificate"
(or be a military pilot).

--Gary

> I'm afraid such a checkride wouldn't get very far: 61.123h says a
> commercial-pilot applicant must "hold at least a private pilot certificate"
> (or be a military pilot).

Does it say for how long he has to hold it?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" > wrote in message
. com...
>> I'm afraid such a checkride wouldn't get very far: 61.123h says a
>> commercial-pilot applicant must "hold at least a private pilot
>> certificate" (or be a military pilot).
>
> Does it say for how long he has to hold it?

Well, at least long enough to accumulate 250 hours of flight time, 50 hours
of cross-country PIC time, a 300-mile solo cross-country flight, etc.

--Gary

> Well, at least long enough to accumulate 250 hours of flight time, 50 hours
> of cross-country PIC time, a 300-mile solo cross-country flight, etc.

Jay's kids probably have that already. :)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Do you have a 2 hour, 100NM VFR, Dual x-c? Another one at night? I had to
burn those up for the CPL. Bah.


"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> I will be doing my FAA commercial (SE) in the winter (Phoenix
> probably); it seems to me that the requirements I had to have for the
> FAA PPL+IR would meet the CPL requirements too.
>
> I can read the FAR/AIM but are there any "gotchas" to watch for?

> So, I got to burn a couple hundred bucks of Avgas to get the 300NM
> (250NM one leg) *SOLO* X/C out of the way.
>
> Now, I'm just trying to get another 5 hours of complex time in for the total
> of 10.

Why not do them at once?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

To rent the Arrow (without an instructor) at a nearby field, I need 10 hours
in type. So, I'm instructor locked for the 10 hours anyway. Had I actually
used my brain, I would have done the 100NM dual VFR X/C's in the Arrow.
Coulda burned up 4 hours that way.
I used some old block time in a Diamond Star for the 2 dual X/C. Bah.
Hindsight...


"Jose" > wrote in message
.com...
> > So, I got to burn a couple hundred bucks of Avgas to get the 300NM
> > (250NM one leg) *SOLO* X/C out of the way.
> >
> > Now, I'm just trying to get another 5 hours of complex time in for the
total
> > of 10.
>
> Why not do them at once?
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose > wrote in
. com:

>> Well, at least long enough to accumulate 250 hours of flight time, 50
>> hours of cross-country PIC time, a 300-mile solo cross-country flight,
>> etc.
>
> Jay's kids probably have that already. :)
>
> Jose

Yeah, but if Jay or his wife were CFIs, Jay's kids would already have the
other qualifications as well. As it is, I suspect with someone like Jay's
kids, the 2 x 2 hour flights with a CFI sitting next to them would be just
for the sake of paying a CFI for his time, and would serve no added benefit
to them as Commercial Students...

> Yeah, but if Jay or his wife were CFIs, Jay's kids would already have the
> other qualifications as well.

Point is, it may well be possible to walk in as a student pilot and walk
out that same day as a commercial pilot. It might be impractical for
most, but not impossible. The only possible catch I see is that 161.129
specifies "must log at least...100 hours of pilot in command flight
time". But student pilot solo time is loggable as pilot in command, and
it is flight time. In addition, a student pilot, when flying solo, IS
pilot in command.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Steve, this is a topic I have pontificated upon before... You need two
logs...

One OFFICIAL log which shows only the date, airports, # of landings,
etc... But has no personal information of any kind.. This is the book
you use for dealing with officialdom...

The other is the braggin book, this one lists who was there, who threw
up, pictures and souvenier tickets, and so on...

denny

Steven Barnes wrote:
> I came up short on all 3 commercial X/C's.